Comments on: Microsoft and Mono http://basementcoders.com/?p=147 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:06:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Craig Tataryn http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-78 Craig Tataryn Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:44:02 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-78 <a href="#comment-77" rel="nofollow">@Dan</a> I agree they wanted a Java killer, but also C#'s purpose was to be "the language of .NET". It basically demonstrates all the features the .NET CLR is capable of. They couldn't do it with VB.NET because they (I suspect) didn't want to overwhelm existing VB'ers with a tonne of new features. @Dan
I agree they wanted a Java killer, but also C#’s purpose was to be “the language of .NET”. It basically demonstrates all the features the .NET CLR is capable of. They couldn’t do it with VB.NET because they (I suspect) didn’t want to overwhelm existing VB’ers with a tonne of new features.

]]> By: Dan http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-77 Dan Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:10:48 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-77 Excellent summary of the problem. When the courts shot down Microsoft's bastardization of Java, MS chose to create a competing language instead. It's obvious C# was never intended to be anything other than a Java killer. Microsoft then, predictably, flexed the muscles of it's monopoly to promote c#. Yes, their monopoly status is HIGHLY relevant. Excellent summary of the problem. When the courts shot down Microsoft’s bastardization of Java, MS chose to create a competing language instead. It’s obvious C# was never intended to be anything other than a Java killer. Microsoft then, predictably, flexed the muscles of it’s monopoly to promote c#. Yes, their monopoly status is HIGHLY relevant.

]]> By: alex http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-61 alex Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:27:37 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-61 <a href="#comment-58" rel="nofollow">@Tim</a> Microsoft could just make, release and support C# + runtime on Linux themselves. You know, like Sun does with Java. That would show they really care about multi-platform support. Back when MS was pushing DCOM, they did the exact same thing. They contracted out the DCOM support on UNIX to a third party developer, and pointed anyone to it if they asked about non-Windows support. It too played catchup and constantly fought for relevance. @Tim

Microsoft could just make, release and support C# + runtime on Linux themselves. You know, like Sun does with Java. That would show they really care about multi-platform support.

Back when MS was pushing DCOM, they did the exact same thing. They contracted out the DCOM support on UNIX to a third party developer, and pointed anyone to it if they asked about non-Windows support. It too played catchup and constantly fought for relevance.

]]> By: Tim http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-58 Tim Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:02:54 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-58 "Again, I'm just saying ther're[Mono] always going to be chasing ever changing Microsoft standards, and always playing catchup." And what is Microsoft supposed to do about that? Give Mono access to their code before its finished? Update the language specs before they've been implimented by Microsoft (not possible, specs change during implimenation)? C'mon. Mainly, you're trying to justify your dislike for Microsoft, even after it has enthusiastically supported Mono. “Again, I’m just saying ther’re[Mono] always going to be chasing ever changing Microsoft standards, and always playing catchup.”

And what is Microsoft supposed to do about that? Give Mono access to their code before its finished? Update the language specs before they’ve been implimented by Microsoft (not possible, specs change during implimenation)?

C’mon. Mainly, you’re trying to justify your dislike for Microsoft, even after it has enthusiastically supported Mono.

]]> By: alex http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-56 alex Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:15:23 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-56 <a href="#comment-54" rel="nofollow">@Aaron</a> I guess I've just seen too many Windows-centric projects, and am very skeptical that Windows developers look forward to other platforms when building their applications. When it comes time to port it, if it's not easy, they give up and ignore Linux (and why shouldn't they, it has a tiny desktop market share). I think you're overestimating Mono's current compatibility greatly. But I wish you luck in your project and would love to hear that you had a swimmingly easy time in your port. <a href="#comment-55" rel="nofollow">@Roy</a> Lost it to Mono? I don't have any Mono applications (large, non-core-system applications) installed, yet I have a plethora of C++ and Java desktop applications. This is especially true when you look at commercial applications, who are more pragmatic and conservative when it comes to choosing languages and libraries. I'm not biased against Mono apps though. If I find one that I like, I won't think twice about apt-get'ing the required runtime. @Aaron

I guess I’ve just seen too many Windows-centric projects, and am very skeptical that Windows developers look forward to other platforms when building their applications. When it comes time to port it, if it’s not easy, they give up and ignore Linux (and why shouldn’t they, it has a tiny desktop market share). I think you’re overestimating Mono’s current compatibility greatly. But I wish you luck in your project and would love to hear that you had a swimmingly easy time in your port.

@Roy

Lost it to Mono? I don’t have any Mono applications (large, non-core-system applications) installed, yet I have a plethora of C++ and Java desktop applications. This is especially true when you look at commercial applications, who are more pragmatic and conservative when it comes to choosing languages and libraries. I’m not biased against Mono apps though. If I find one that I like, I won’t think twice about apt-get’ing the required runtime.

]]> By: Roy http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-55 Roy Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:59:50 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-55 Bottom line is that "Linux developers" have already rejected Java for C#/Mono on the desktop. Java has lost the Linux desktop and lost it years ago. Bottom line is that “Linux developers” have already rejected Java for C#/Mono on the desktop. Java has lost the Linux desktop and lost it years ago.

]]> By: Aaron http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-54 Aaron Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:24:26 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-54 I have to agree with Terry. I'm 2 years out of college and got my first job at a company that uses C# and ASP.NET. I was a PHP / MySQL web developer for 5 years prior, and I have to say that despite being a fan of FOSS, ASP.NET for web development is SO MUCH more time effective. I am thrilled to be able to move projects over to Mono and have had great success doing it so far. Alex, your main issue that Mono will always have to play catch-up to the MS releases is valid, but from a practical standpoint I don't think it is detrimental. I recently went to one of the Visual Studio/SQL/Windows 2008 launch events and trainings to see the latest and greatest. In one of the seminars they did a hand raising asking how many people had migrated to .NET 3.0, how many were using WCF/WPF, and a bunch of other year-old and two-year old language improvements. The truth is, maybe 10% of the hands went up. Adoption of the new stuff and especially incorporating it in larger projects with existing coding standards takes a long time -- most people weren't beyond .NET 2.0 framework. I believe Mono is already fully compatible at 3.0, or further. I and other developers I work with are already evaluating if we can move some projects to Mono. Hell, I even attended SoCal Linux Expo last week for the first time because I wanted to see what else was out there (and learned a ton!). Also, I think the analysis about Java is fair, almost all my university schooling was in Java, and C# borrows from it in the areas I liked, and improves some of the areas I didn't like about Java. The languages are so similar though, in my opinion it would be really hard for Microsoft to go after Mono on C# considering how much Microsoft "borrowed" from Java. Same with Moonlight, especially considering how MS folks stayed up late night before the Obama inauguration to help get Moonlight capable of streaming the video, can they turn around and sue Novell now? Anyways, it's a good debate. Viva Mono & viva Miguel! I have to agree with Terry. I’m 2 years out of college and got my first job at a company that uses C# and ASP.NET. I was a PHP / MySQL web developer for 5 years prior, and I have to say that despite being a fan of FOSS, ASP.NET for web development is SO MUCH more time effective. I am thrilled to be able to move projects over to Mono and have had great success doing it so far.

Alex, your main issue that Mono will always have to play catch-up to the MS releases is valid, but from a practical standpoint I don’t think it is detrimental. I recently went to one of the Visual Studio/SQL/Windows 2008 launch events and trainings to see the latest and greatest. In one of the seminars they did a hand raising asking how many people had migrated to .NET 3.0, how many were using WCF/WPF, and a bunch of other year-old and two-year old language improvements. The truth is, maybe 10% of the hands went up. Adoption of the new stuff and especially incorporating it in larger projects with existing coding standards takes a long time — most people weren’t beyond .NET 2.0 framework. I believe Mono is already fully compatible at 3.0, or further.

I and other developers I work with are already evaluating if we can move some projects to Mono. Hell, I even attended SoCal Linux Expo last week for the first time because I wanted to see what else was out there (and learned a ton!).

Also, I think the analysis about Java is fair, almost all my university schooling was in Java, and C# borrows from it in the areas I liked, and improves some of the areas I didn’t like about Java. The languages are so similar though, in my opinion it would be really hard for Microsoft to go after Mono on C# considering how much Microsoft “borrowed” from Java. Same with Moonlight, especially considering how MS folks stayed up late night before the Obama inauguration to help get Moonlight capable of streaming the video, can they turn around and sue Novell now? Anyways, it’s a good debate. Viva Mono & viva Miguel!

]]> By: alex http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-53 alex Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:52:58 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-53 They're not straw man arguments. MS's monopoly position guides their decision making in all their business areas, including not (directly) making C# on Linux. I just guess ultimately we'll see in a year or two and what percent of C# apps or silverlight apps are actually usable under Mono/Linux. They’re not straw man arguments. MS’s monopoly position guides their decision making in all their business areas, including not (directly) making C# on Linux.

I just guess ultimately we’ll see in a year or two and what percent of C# apps or silverlight apps are actually usable under Mono/Linux.

]]> By: Terry http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-51 Terry Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:56:12 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-51 I really do agree with Takla here. For whatever reason many OSS enthusiasts seem to love making straw man arguments against anything related to Microsoft. Microsoft being a convicted monopolist has nothing to do with whether C# and Mono was a good idea but yet you included this in your biased argument. Microsoft made a usable language in C# to help people get their job done something that C++ really fails to do. I support Mono because if I *do* have to target the *nix systems with a product I know I can get a reasonable product out the door quickly. Java is FAR TOO VERBOSE AND COMPLICATED WITH LITTLE REWARD. C# is a SUPERIOR EVOLUTION OF JAVA because Anders Hejlsberg was able to design it based on 20/20 hindsight of the failures of JAVA and it eliminates many of the bungling errors of segmentation faults and memory leaks of C and C++. Miguel de Icaza made a wise and prudent choice going with C# for Linux desktop applications. I really do agree with Takla here. For whatever reason many OSS enthusiasts seem to love making straw man arguments against anything related to Microsoft. Microsoft being a convicted monopolist has nothing to do with whether C# and Mono was a good idea but yet you included this in your biased argument. Microsoft made a usable language in C# to help people get their job done something that C++ really fails to do. I support Mono because if I *do* have to target the *nix systems with a product I know I can get a reasonable product out the door quickly. Java is FAR TOO VERBOSE AND COMPLICATED WITH LITTLE REWARD. C# is a SUPERIOR EVOLUTION OF JAVA because Anders Hejlsberg was able to design it based on 20/20 hindsight of the failures of JAVA and it eliminates many of the bungling errors of segmentation faults and memory leaks of C and C++.
Miguel de Icaza made a wise and prudent choice going with C# for Linux desktop applications.

]]> By: alex http://basementcoders.com/?p=147&cpage=1#comment-50 alex Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:12:47 +0000 http://basementcoders.com/?p=147#comment-50 I don't trot out 'convicted monopolist' unthinkingly, I do so with a purpose in an attempt to explain how Microsoft operates with respect to technology lock-in. Microsoft does what any for-profit company would do in its position and that is maintain its monopoly status while maintaining profits. This isn't evil, this is being a good corporation. It is up to governments to take apart monopolies and let the capitalistic process start anew. Weather any governments have done this (or want to) I'll leave for another day's discussion. I don't attack Mr de Icaza personally (as I don't know him), and I highly respect the work he's done for the Linux Desktop. He is one of the big leaders in the community. Regardless, that doesn't make every decision he makes perfect. In my personal opinion, stressing C, ignoring C++ and going the C# route was/is a mistake, as outlined in my post. Nor do I agree with his defense of MS in his public statements in the podcast. These are my personal opinions and I'm entitled to them. I don't criticize the Mono code itself, which I'm sure is of high quality. Again, I'm just saying they're always going to be chasing ever changing Microsoft standards, and always playing catchup. That is all. Please don't put words in my mouth. I don’t trot out ‘convicted monopolist’ unthinkingly, I do so with a purpose in an attempt to explain how Microsoft operates with respect to technology lock-in. Microsoft does what any for-profit company would do in its position and that is maintain its monopoly status while maintaining profits. This isn’t evil, this is being a good corporation. It is up to governments to take apart monopolies and let the capitalistic process start anew. Weather any governments have done this (or want to) I’ll leave for another day’s discussion.

I don’t attack Mr de Icaza personally (as I don’t know him), and I highly respect the work he’s done for the Linux Desktop. He is one of the big leaders in the community. Regardless, that doesn’t make every decision he makes perfect. In my personal opinion, stressing C, ignoring C++ and going the C# route was/is a mistake, as outlined in my post. Nor do I agree with his defense of MS in his public statements in the podcast. These are my personal opinions and I’m entitled to them.

I don’t criticize the Mono code itself, which I’m sure is of high quality. Again, I’m just saying they’re always going to be chasing ever changing Microsoft standards, and always playing catchup. That is all.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

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